Thursday, March 30, 2006

They lied to us?
Nah, couldn't be.
Just that one time right?
Whuuu, really...?
That many times...?
Now you're saying...
There's something else they lied about?
You don't say...

source of origin - The Huffington Post


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Banned by webmaster. Your comments will not be added

Gravatar Glad you're free Jill...and LARA is SMOKIN'

Occam's Meme | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:17 pm | #

Gravatar But will any of those heinous rightwingers condemning her issue a retraction?
RR | 04.01.06 - 3:19 pm | #

Gravatar RR, hehehe... RETRACTION???... hehehe... sometimes you are just too funny, girl!

Buck | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:22 pm | #

Gravatar God, I'd marry Lara just for her eyes. Good on her for setting the record straight on Jill's "complicity"! Of course, it'll go completely ignored by the wingnuts who're still casting about for a sacrificial lamb on whom to pin this fiasco.
jurassicpork | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:28 pm | #

Gravatar Glad you're free Jill...and LARA is SMOKIN'

Occam's Meme | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:17 pm | #

*cough* ditto....
Samson- | 04.01.06 - 3:35 pm | #

Gravatar Am I missing something? When did the remarks made by people kidnapped in Iraq become the measure of one's status as a victim? Unless I am mistaken, being taken against one's will and witnessing one's translator being murdered does constitute a crime and does make one a victim.

If I understand the issue, the fact that Jill Carroll made remarks after her release that can be interpreted as sympathetic to the insurgents has raised the ire of many neo-con supporters of the Iraq war and the policies of the current administration.

If I understand this new victim equation, had Jill Carroll been murdered and her body was subsequently found, she would have been seen as a full-fledged victim. Unfortunately, the fact that she was released and made her statement means she wasn't actually a real victim, but more likely a collaborating propagandist.

Let's assume that Jill Carroll was able to negotiate her release by virtue of an ability to express an understanding of the motivations and objectives of her captors...say she convinced them she was sympathetic to their cause. Further, let's assume she agreed to make the statements she made as part of her negotiated release. Finally, let's also conclude that upon her release, she had no obligation to make the statement she agreed to make.

Apparently, those criticizing Ms. Carroll ceased all further analysis at this point. Unfortunately, our poisoned partisan environment has seemingly overtaken any obligation to apply additional reasoned and rational thought. That's unfortunate.

Regardless, I felt compelled to offer another perspective. Three years into a conflict with no certain end in sight has led me to conclude that what we need may not be more of the same. Henry Kissinger used to talk about detente when speaking about the Middle East. Since 9/11 such thinking is characterized as unpatriotic if not outright treason by the neo-cons.

Absolutist banter now permeates both sides of most arguments and issues...especially Iraq and the 'war on terror'. Ironically, at the same time, most people, if confronted, would acknowledge the likely end result of such discourse...look no further than the Israeli - Palestinian conflict. And yet, when the issue is our own (i.e. - American safety and security), we succumb to the same dogmatic, non-retractable positions. Clearly, history tells us the longer the conflict festers, the more recalcitrant both sides become.

Before making any conclusions it’s important to point out some critical background influences. One, this administration has repeatedly linked 9/11 to Iraq...not by saying Iraq participated in 9/11...but clearly by saying that Iraq is the battlefield upon which the 'war on terror' is being waged. Polls confirm the effectiveness of this manipulative mantra. Add the new phraseology of Islamo-Extremists to the equation and you have now further broadened the assault, the scope, and the divide. Now toss in longstanding sectarian conflicts, Kurdish independence, and Shia animosity at years of Sunni dominance and oppression. This seems pretty complicated to me.

Again, we're over three years into this conflict and some argue we are closer to civil war than to democratic civility. The history of societies has always proven that rule or change by the application of power will eventually fail if it doesn't include persuasion...that being winning over the hearts and minds of those you seek to rule or change.

So where does that leave us with Jill Carroll's remarks and the Iraq situation. I don't know Jill Carroll so I can only offer plausible observations. What I have read is that she is sincere in her concern for Iraq and the outcome of this war. She is respectful of Iraqi cultural and religious influences. She has tried to be a voice of moderation. Nonetheless, she was kidnapped by those who saw her as a target and a tool in their efforts to prevail.

Most importantly, she was apparently able to convince them of her sincerity and her integrity...she changed their hearts and minds to some degree...first to convince them to release here...and second, and more completing her promise to make the remarks she convince them that humanity is valuable and can also be trusted. Again, she didn’t have to keep any promise she may have made and I am not to saying that what her captors have possibly done to other victims or intended to do to her wasn't criminal and heinous. Regardless, she apparently touched some portion of their humanity...found some common ground upon which to agree...and unless we achieve more of this, we will remain sworn and reviled enemies. When absolute ideology is allowed to dehumanize the enemy, resolution can only be achieved through the barrel of a gun.

Lastly, as a non-believer, I am fascinated by the fact that on both sides of this conflict and many other long standing conflicts are individuals with fervent religious beliefs. I don't know Jill Carroll's personal religious beliefs, but I'm willing to assert that her actions better typify religious principles than the combatants on all sides of the Iraq conflict. If we can't find some common humanity, we are destined to lessen all of humanity. As it stands now, there will continue to be many more victims…regardless of how one defines only our humanity that can end wars.

the concept. Wars may allow for humanity to be suspended, but in the end it is
Daniel DiRito | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:41 pm | #

Gravatar I'd like to pass around the cookie jar to raise enough money to send Jonah on a one way trip to Baghdad. Any donors out there? How much will you give $1, $5, $10?

Let's send Jonah to the land of peace and prosperity!
Mash | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:42 pm | #

Gravatar SORRY: My copy and paste failed. Here's the last paragraph again.

Lastly, as a non-believer, I am fascinated by the fact that on both sides of this conflict and many other long standing conflicts are individuals with fervent religious beliefs. I don't know Jill Carroll's personal religious beliefs, but I'm willing to assert that her actions better typify religious principles than the combatants on all sides of the Iraq conflict. If we can't find some common humanity, we are destined to lessen all of humanity. As it stands now, there will continue to be many more victims…regardless of how one defines the concept. Wars may allow for humanity to be suspended, but in the end it is only our humanity that can end wars.
Daniel DiRito | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:45 pm | #

American POWs in North Vietnam made filmed "confessions" and such while making hand signals and blinking Morse Code that they were under duress. They weren't court-martialed.

Leave this poor woman alone.
ChristianLibrul | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:46 pm | #

Gravatar Daniel, please write shorter comments please.
C&L | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:50 pm | #

Gravatar Ex hostage John McCain needs to get his butt to her and apologize for his party.Will he?No
kay carlton | 04.01.06 - 3:51 pm | #

Gravatar What would anyone do with a gun pointed at your head? You can ask John McCain about that. She spoke her mind, wheather wingnuts liked it or not.
wisedup | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 3:54 pm | #

So apparently Jill Carrol's only crime is that she is too good an actress.

If it meant my freedom rather than my death, I'd say anything they wanted too.
Anonymous | 04.01.06 - 3:56 pm | #

Gravatar So if Carroll didn't give in to her captures would that prove toture doesn't work?. The reaction to the right on this entire ordeal leaves one thinking they were looking forward to a Jill Carroll beheading video to get their perverted rocks off too.

Jamie | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:01 pm | #

This is an interesting article. Not saying Bush would be so stupid. But who are the weenies that would even work on a draft memo?? OR is this an April Fool's Joke?

The Continuity Presidency
Crakn Inja | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:03 pm | #

I think the article is probably the best argument against the during wartime justification of the warrantless wiretapping joke.
Crakn Inja | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:06 pm | #

I'm waiting for her to come back and tell her story. But from what I am hearing now she was "forced" to say the things she did. Her latest statement indicates she hates her captors as much as we do. I think that says enough for me at this time.
jfP | 04.01.06 - 4:12 pm | #

The Freeper bunch just want to vent their hatred on anything the right-wing deems acceptable to hate. They won't apologize for their venting on this woman, they are too busy looking for the next thing to hate. They are nothing but pathetic self-loathing cowards who hate themselves so they take it out that self-hatred on anything they can. It is really bad that the Republicans have turned such a evil part of human nature into part of their appeal.
Anonymous | 04.01.06 - 4:19 pm | #

Gravatar Let us just imagine she did believe the things she said in the first two interviews?

What would that prove? She's a spy? That she disagrees with the invasion of Iraq? So what?
Pink | 04.01.06 - 4:25 pm | #

Gravatar Wised-up,

She did not speak her mind when she praised her captors. She's since made that much clear. Her captors are barbaric mystics without reason and they will lose. She considers them "criminals at best."


I must single you out for special shame, as you wrote on a related thread:
"Even if she was not being threatened, I don't find anything she said to be overly objectionable. If you spend three months on the other side, you are bound to have a different perspective. I am glad she spoke her mind."
You defended the vile and dangerous lies put in this petrified girl's mouth by force. I'd say that when your talking points are consistent with those of the Mujahadeen, you forfeit any right to say that others are "drinking the cool-aid."
ds | 04.01.06 - 4:29 pm | #

She may be leery of talking about all this in fear for the others who are still being held captive. If she comes out and now portrays her captives as totally evil people, she may get someone killed.
Anonymous | 04.01.06 - 4:30 pm | #

>So if Carroll didn't give in to her captures would that prove toture doesn't work?.<

There's nothing to suggest that she was tortured. In fact, it is very likely that she was treated well and is even a little sympathetic with her captures (a common occurrence). All prior statements by other prisoners back up the claim that they treat women prisoners very well.

My problem with all of this media attention is that I don't understand why her opinion matters. Why are people actually upset at the fact that she might be against US policy in Iraq (I'm not talking about statements on the video, which was of course exaggerated so that she could get released)? Why does it matter? As if there weren't millions of us against US policy in Iraq. It's simply a bad news story that people want to spin as propaganda. She's free; leave it at that.
GregZ | 04.01.06 - 4:30 pm | #

OT: I know I'm ot, but am I the Only One that is Alarmed About This? Do any of you have resources to check this out? If it's not an April Fool joke, he obviously couldn't pull it off, but who would instruct DoJ to work on such a memo? Doesnt' it warrant msm? or even blogosphere media?

Exclusive The US Department of Justice (DoJ) and the office of the White House Counsel are preparing a draft document laying out the President's wartime authority to remain in office past 2008, The Register has learned.

The scheme is described as an emergency "continuity presidency," made necessary by the extraordinary circumstances and unique challenges of protecting the United States from the threat of international terrorism.
Crakn Inja | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:34 pm | #

Gravatar How about Ms Carroll throwing in a line of sorrow about her now-dead translator? Was the story she was going after worth it?
m | 04.01.06 - 4:38 pm | #

Gravatar Crakn Inja,

Don't be a child. There's no such memo and no such plan.
ds | 04.01.06 - 4:42 pm | #

Most of this rightwings extremist republicans suffer of inferiority complex, thus the hatred they dispay toward other human being, what is disturbing is that they use God and the shield of christianity to justify their crimes, hope they'll burn in hell.
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:43 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu,
What crimes?
ds | 04.01.06 - 4:45 pm | #

Well, at least I didn't fall for it hook, link, and sinker....just hook, and line.
Crakn Inja | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:46 pm | #

ds-war crimes, torture, lies, nepotism, environment terrorism, and corruption sould I go any further?
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:56 pm | #

Gravatar ds, your right, I didn't make clear that 'she spoke her mind', was in reference to what the 'critics' wanted her to say. I guess they wanted her to say 'thank you mr.bush' and she didn't .
wisedup | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:56 pm | #

Gravatar Crakn Inja,

I think it was a brilliant and illustrative prank, because it demonstrates how willing liberals are to embrace the most absurd fantasies in order to scream, "impeach Bush." It reveals the complete lack of reasoned analysis on the part of the anti-Bush fear-mongers.
ds | 04.01.06 - 4:57 pm | #

Gravatar Kay Carlton, you mention that John McCain should be sympathetic toward Jill Carroll, and you're right because when the Arizona senator was in the Hanoi Hilton back in the '70s, he spilled his guts to end the torture he was undergoing.

He caught a lot crap from conservatives over that, but rose above it and is now in a position to run for the presidency.

Let no one criticize anyone who is abducted and trying to save his/her life. How friggin' ridiculous!
ex-marine | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:57 pm | #

Gravatar Jill's statement: earlyed...world040106.htm

Is Jill to be criticized for "flip-flopping"? Well, that all depends on whether one can spend a little time in her circumstances, no?

leakyboat | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 4:58 pm | #

Gravatar Jill just released a statement. It can be read here index.html

I'm looking forward to all the public apologies from the evil right wingers who attacked her.

But I know their response. "She's back tracking because of all the legitimate heat she's been getting for praising her captors"

The rightards will never admit they were wrong.
Greg | 04.01.06 - 4:58 pm | #

Gravatar wisedup,
What you just wrote doesn't make any sense. I don't understand.
ds | 04.01.06 - 4:58 pm | #

I specifically recall, not embracing, but rather asked folks opinion and their help in checking it out. The sad part to me is that it was even half way believable with this President.

In any case, sorry for my silly distraction to your conversation.
Crakn Inja | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:01 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu,
You should indeed go further, specifically by way of proof. Do you have any evidence of these crimes? If you do, you must come forward, as you would be the very first.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:03 pm | #

Gravatar ds, I wonder how long it would take you to spout anti-Bush statements if someone grabbed you by the testicles and started squeezing real hard until your face turned blue.

Not too long, me thinks, so shut the fuck up!
ex-marine | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:05 pm | #

Gravatar Carroll Rejects Statements Made in Iraq carroll
Bounce | 04.01.06 - 5:05 pm | #

Gravatar ex-marine,
I can't think of why you would pose such a question to me, as I've said nothing derogatory about the poor woman. What did you misread into my comments?
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:10 pm | #

Gravatar m? Did Jill force her interpreter to go with her? NO. You people constantly tell us it's a free country, so I think he had a choice. Right? So you're blaming an American for the death of an Iraqi at the hands of a terrorist? I thought we weren't allowed to do that. The typical conservative double standard. The rules change to suit your argument. I thought your ilk tells us to blame the killers. Unfortunately because of the security problem in Iraq, just about everything you do killed get killed or kidnapped.
Greg | 04.01.06 - 5:17 pm | #

Gravatar ds, I do apologize because I did misread your comments. Please forgive's just that I get so pissed at these freepers that I think I'm back in combat, again. Sorry.
ex-marine | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:18 pm | #

Gravatar ds, when jill was released she got to say what she...wanted to say, not what her captors made her say. Her critics wanted more 'hate' from her about her captors and didn't get it.
Part of my job in the USMC, was to intervied Korean war POW'S. The men I talked to were so glad to be free, the felt 'thankful' that their caports let them out. It took some a very long time to talk about the whole picture. It was just to horrible to talk about right away. So the first statements don't reflect the whole picture. Brainwashng was new to all of us, and I worked with many others to counter it. I feel her critics were waiting for her to come out screaming and yelling about the injustice. I doesn't work that way. Sorry if my statement was to short.
wisedup | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:19 pm | #

ds- What evidence do you need from me, the facts of these crimes are reported by all the world's(I'm fluent 5 European languages) and US media, if you can't discern all of this hapening for you self, I can only assume you're on medication, let me gues, pain killers?
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:22 pm | #

Gravatar What strikes me the most is that by forcing Jill Carroll to say what she said on video tape they did not make Jill Carroll look like a traitor as much as they allowed the right to show us all that are reactionary in the extreem.

As for the comments about how beautiful Laura Logan is, when i look into both her and Jill Carroll's face all i see is beauty. The beauty of being human. Two knockouts.
xoites defends Constitution | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:23 pm | #

Gravatar wisedup,
What evidence do you have that she didn't say what her captors wanted her to say, but what was on her mind? In asserting this, you realize, you're calling her a liar, as she's since said that she said what her captors wanted her to say. So, let's hear the evidence that this woman was a liar.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:23 pm | #

Gravatar xoites defends Constitution

"the beauty of being human."

ahhhhh, that's so lovely and wonderful and sweet and humane and warm and fuzzy and. . . and. . . can't we all just get along?????????????
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:24 pm | #

The left was just as despicable as the right. Before anyone knew if her comments were made under duress, liberals were using her praise for her captors as proof that the Mujahadeen were more humane than the U.S. soldiers.
Themoderatevoice | 04.01.06 - 5:25 pm | #

Gravatar Bingo, Themoderatevoice |
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:26 pm | #

Gravatar xoites, maybe that's what her kidnappers wanted? To watch how the American right attack their own. In that case, the terrorist have won because the right let them win. Seems like the right is really the enemy to all.
Greg | 04.01.06 - 5:27 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu,

So you have know specific evidence of specific crimes. As I thought.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:29 pm | #

Gravatar ex-marine,
No apology neccesary. No harm done.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:30 pm | #

Gravatar ds and Themoderatevoice, who was attacking one of there own? An American? Wow, you guys are funny. You say America needs to stand together during war time, so it's a bad thing when a liberal says anything negative about an American but using the typical conservative double standard, it's okay when you do it.
Greg | 04.01.06 - 5:34 pm | #

Gravatar Greg,
I don't know what you're talking about.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:36 pm | #

ds- Are the pictures of Abhu Graib's captives being tortured(this being the tip of the iceberg) and scores of dead civilians by US bombs, not specific enogh for you? You must be on medication!!!!
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:43 pm | #

Gravatar ds,I not calling jill a lier at all. It will take time for the whole story to come out. She's a brave woman in my book. Torture comes in many ways. I would love to interview her when all is settled down. For now I accept all opinions,(except trolls) as we all push for a better world.
wisedup | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 5:44 pm | #

Gravatar Wisedup,

You wrote: "when jill was released she got to say what she...wanted to say, not what her captors made her say"

Jill said: "Things that I was forced to say while captive are now being taken by some as an accurate reflection of my personal views. They are not."

So, you're calling her a liar. Period.

Live with your words. However silly they sound coming back to you.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:50 pm | #


you are a truly disgusting little coward. How can you even think to judge her siyuation sitting at home with your dick in your hand behind your keyboard. God, are all you guys little keyboard warriors? Run on home now momma's boy.
Steve G | 04.01.06 - 5:52 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu
Those are evidence of war crimes comitted by soldiers. What I asked you for was evidence of war crimes committed by the Bush administration. Surely you should have something, if all the evidence is so blatant. I'm eagerly awaiting.
ds | 04.01.06 - 5:56 pm | #

Just dropped by to remind everyone, ISP. It would be easier if our freeper buddy would just pick one identity and stick with it, rather than assuming a bewildering set of two and three letter initials.

They are cowards, physically and morally. Ignore them and they will go away.
Gregory | 04.01.06 - 6:01 pm | #

ds- There you go again, passing the blame to someone other then W&Co, is it not typical of you bloody conservatives to do so?
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 6:03 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu,
So, you admit now that you have nothing. I can respect that.
ds | 04.01.06 - 6:09 pm | #

ds- so spying on Americans without court warrants like W&Co is now doing, in not a crime? Lying about WMD like W&Co did , is not a crime? I would not want to have you as my defense lawer.It is morning here(Australia), I'm off to church I'll pray for you as well.
nieddu | Homepage | 04.01.06 - 6:20 pm | #

Gravatar nieddu,
Another legal lesson for you:
What you just gave me were ACCUSATIONS, at best one could call them charges. What I asked for is EVIDENCE. Have you any? A bit? A scrap? A mite? An iota?
Then again, I'm talking to someone who is off to go pray to some guy for whom there is also no EVIDENCE. And I know enough about the delusional to know that you are acting out of a religious conviction in Bush' guilt and not a reasoned analysis.
ds | 04.01.06 - 6:26 pm | #

I like cats
Anonymous | 04.01.06 - 6:35 pm | #

Gravatar I like dogs.
ds | 04.01.06 - 6:38 pm | #




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